[0:00] [background music]

Announcer: [0:02] You’re listening to the OverDivorce.com podcast, with host, Tom and Adrian. Two guys, swapping stories about getting over divorce. If you’re going through a painful divorce and are struggling with anger and anxiety, then you’ve found the right podcast. Hang with us for the next 30 minutes or so.

[0:18] We promise you’ll gain useful insight and effective tips and techniques for getting over your divorce and rebuilding a better life.

Tom: [0:26] Welcome to podcast seven. I’m Tom.

Adrian: [0:28] I’m Adrian.

Tom: [0:29] We’re glad to have you here today. Adrian, what’s on our agenda?

Adrian: [0:35] Today, we’re going to be talking about friends and family, the impact of your divorce and how you handle those relationships. Talking about how some of those may shift and change and how some of them can deepen and get stronger.

Tom: [0:53] I think that it’s a particularly great subject to be talking about today. I know that I was really having a hard time with all of this.

[1:02] I found that friends, obviously, are really critical. Sometimes, we worry about going through these emotional difficulties. We worry about stressing our friendships out, a lot. Making people uncomfortable. Getting them involved in our drama.

[1:20] I had a particularly deep crisis about that, leading up to a vacation where I was going to see some friends. I was really super worried about seeing them because I was worried that I would be burned to them. That they would feel different. Not so much that they have to pick a team, Team Me or Team X.

[1:40] There would be a lack of symmetry in the relationship. I didn’t have a wife. They did. That just, would make things awkward and tricky.

[1:53] What I came away with, from it though, was just the opposite. They were super supportive, super kind. I’m still going through this almost state of disbelief and really a high-level of gratitude about it. It was pretty astounding and…Adrian, I got to see you face-to-face, you were part of that. I really appreciated that too. It was awesome to see you. You were a huge help to me.

Adrian: [2:19] Yeah, man. I’m glad that I could [laughs] help. Did you experience any kind of shift at all? From my perspective, my family was great. They were really spot-on. Of course, my parents have been divorced, couple of times. There wasn’t a stigma on me going through my divorce. They were both really supportive and kind of there for me, basically acted as rocks, as well as my friends. I leaned on them, my friends, pretty heavily, on a daily, weekly basis type of thing.

[2:57] I think when you are going through this, you really have to open yourself up to that and reach out. But time you shared with me that you noticed there was a shift with some of your friends that you felt.

[3:09] I’ve talked to some other of my friends that have gone through divorce and they felt, yeah, your married friends distance themselves like you’ve got a disease, like they might catch the divorce fever from you.

Tom: [3:23] It’s interesting, because it was almost universal with people in my neighborhood. We talked about this on an earlier podcast, this sort of pack mentality in the neighborhood.

[3:36] I don’t even think it’s intentional. Someone called me on this.They were like, “Are you really sure that people are hiding from you? Aren’t you being a little sensitive, maybe?” I’m like, “No, people turn their back and walked inside their house as I was walking down the street with my dog.” [laughs]

Adrian: [3:56] That’s because you like to walk down in the nude, my friend.

Tom: [laughs] [3:58] Yeah, I’ve really got to keep the clothes on, you’re right about that.

[4:01] I really was shocked about the pack thing compared to the longer friendships that I have.

[4:10] I’ve lived in this neighborhood a long time. It was always my ex and I. She was always nicer and certainly more socially competent than I was. I think that for a lot of people who live near me, it was just, “Oh, what happened? She left, that’s weird.”

[4:30] It’s not universally true. A guy who lives a couple of doors down from me, he’s been in the neighborhood for a while. He invited me over for a barbeque in a couple of weeks. That’s super nice. It’s certainly not universal, but it’s pretty common.

[4:44] Another thing about my family, they’ve been remarkably supportive too, in the context of some pretty tough times that they’re going through. I think everybody’s got their own shit. We’ve mentioned it on one of the earliest of the podcasts, is that people have more going on in their lives then to think about you.

[5:06] To your point, you really got to reach out. You don’t have to tell people that you need anything. It helps if you can articulate what you need, i.e. “I need someone to talk to. I need someone to check this email out that I’m about to send. I’m really angry. I’ve had this bad thing happen and I need you to tell me if I’m wrong or right about my reaction to this. Just get gut checks.” It can help if you can articulate that, but I think it helps just as much just to reach out and let them know that you love them and they’re part of your family, and you…

[5:43] [cross talk]

Adrian: [5:43] Yeah.

Tom: [5:44] Blood is thicker than water, right?

Adrian: [5:45] There’s something that comes from being on the other side of that, of just being able to be an ear for somebody, where you don’t have to solve any problems, really. You just have to listen and be there for them. It’s not like you have to come up with any answers, or all the answers, just being there is really enough.

[6:09] But I think the hard part, especially for guys, is reaching out. I think it’s a lot easier just to hole up and not talk about it and not get into it and I don’t know if that’s working for you and you’re feeling good about it, then keep on trucking. It also might be good to…I’m not saying call and do a cry session for 20 minutes, but definitely to be able to vent and to be able to connect with somebody really strengthens your relationship.

[6:35] My mother and I’s relationship’s been pretty good, but it certainly got a lot deeper when I was going through that, just because she would just really listen [laughs] and not say much, which was helpful. Just being able to let all my baggage out and to air it out, I felt super grateful that I had that resource.

Tom: [6:59] It’s interesting. I think it’s been noted for decades, literally, that men are not great listeners because we always just want to solve the problem. “Hey, you need to do this,” and this is how we work through it. You’re right, I think it’s important sometimes just to listen.

[7:17] If you’re sitting at home and you’re not getting out, and you’re not taking some of our earlier discussions to heart. You’re still having a hard time getting out there. You don’t have to go out to a bar, and talk about your divorce. You can go to a game and just hang out and talk about the game.

[7:37] I went with a buddy of mine and his kids. I literally flew up to Baltimore and went to two lacrosse games and just got into lacrosse with he and his sons and forgot about everything, and just thought about lacrosse, what a great sport it was and how much I regretted not having it when I was a kid. [laughs] How great it was the way that the sport was executed and learning all this stuff that I didn’t know about it. I knew nothing about it. Didn’t talk about my divorce or how bad I was missing my daughter, or any of that. I just hung with them, and it was great.

[8:17] I think it’s important. Social interaction is really important. If you don’t want to talk about it, yeah, you don’t have to, but I would say that you do have to get out and you do have to do something other than think about what you’re going through by yourself. If that’s what you’re doing, ask yourself if it’s working. Ask yourself if that’s getting you the result that you desire.

Adrian: [8:43] The other side of the coin, too, is dealing with the toxic parents or the toxic friends and dealing with that issue. I’ve got a friend of mine whose parents were super religious and going through the divorce was just unacceptable. He struggled with that whole aspect and ultimately just ended up cutting off contacts with his parents for a while just because it was unhelpful. They were just beating on him. He needed to take a break from that and get away from that.

[9:17] I think that’s important, too. Recognize the feedback that you’re getting. If it’s helping you and it’s moving you forward and you’re feeling good about it, then keep going with it, but if you’re getting shat on by whoever, then you need to make those breaks. Recognize that and cut those, at least temporarily, because you don’t need that to amplify where you are.

Tom: [9:42] Yeah, you’re right. I think it’s tough to tell sometimes when relationships with friends or family are toxic. Sometimes they’re a little bit of both. They’re therapeutic and toxic, which makes it super tough.

Adrian: [9:57] That’s a great cocktail, right?

Tom: [9:58] Yeah, you’re right. You get the bitter with the sweet, and it seems to work. But, I would say, that even in those cases, where you’re wondering if it’s right or not, like, better to be social than not. Better to think about the nature of that relationship, even if you do think it’s toxic because of extremism.

[10:20] I don’t know. My experience has been that extremism is at the source of most toxic relationships.

[10:25] You’re better to be out in public and engaged and present — We talked about the importance of being present — than it is to just sit at home alone, grinding through the TV and drinking beer.

[10:39] Nothing wrong with that occasionally, but Lord…I think it’s a great release sometimes, but it wears out pretty quick.

Adrian: [10:49] How did you broach your separation and your divorce with your family? How did that all go down with your parents and immediate friends?

Tom: [10:59] I just told them that she left, and I waited for their reaction. They asked me to repeat it because they didn’t believe it. I said, “Yeah, she left. She didn’t give me any warning. It’s just how it sounds.”

[11:15] Most people were shocked genuinely by it, and some people had questions. Friends and family both had questions. Some didn’t, but most did.

[11:25] I think the hardest part for me was that it really separated the wheat from the chaff, in terms of who was really my friend and who wasn’t, because the story was unbelievable. Admittedly, who leaves and doesn’t say anything? Who leaves and doesn’t want to work on it?

[11:47] I had a therapist that told me that, “Yeah, there are plenty people who leave without a reason. It happens all the time.” That just made me mad.

Adrian: [11:57] That’s some bullshit.

Tom: [11:58] Because I was like, “What? Yeah, that’s some bullshit right there. As a therapist, you’re just kind of saying it’s OK.”

[12:05] I think, in defense of therapists, they would just say, “No, I’m just telling you what’s happening and what the reality of it is.” In fairness to her, I just think that she was just doing her job. Ethics is a sticky thing for therapists because the deeper they dive into that, the harder it gets.

[12:28] They’re making judgments about behavior. It keeps them from helping people, I think, a lot of times. I think that was just her sort of clinical response to the situation, but I found it outrageous.

[12:40] But I also think yeah, I had friends and family members who were like, “Ah, there’s got to be more to it. You’re a prick,” and then other ones that were like…

[12:50] [cross talk]

Adrian: [12:50] Can’t debate that, my friend.

Tom: [laughs] [12:51] Then, there were other ones who were like, “Wow, that’s really shitty and I’m sorry,” and were supportive of it and who did believe me. I think it is a test of your credibility when a spouse leaves, because people know that it takes two to tango.

[13:10] I’m not saying that I wasn’t at fault by any stretch of the imagination. I know I have culpability, but I think sometimes people just do weird shit. I think that that’s what the therapist was trying to tell me. Just sometimes people do weird shit. It just is.

[13:30] It doesn’t matter about what my perception of right or wrong, or rational or irrational, or anything. You have to deal with the reality of what it is. You find out pretty quickly who’s with you and who’s against you.

[13:42] I got to say, I wasn’t really surprised by anybody’s reaction, honestly. I have some members of my family who I didn’t talk with that much prior to this and haven’t really talked too much after.

[13:57] I will say that a couple of things have surprised me. Can’t go into too much specifics, but there’s nothing I can really do about it. I have to say that, ultimately when I reflect on it, you get out of a relationship what you put into it.

[14:14] That’s true for family members too. A lot of times, you can look back on the way that you were raised. You can think about the standards that were applied when you were a child and see those standards reflected in your siblings. There’s not a lot that you’re going to change about that.

Adrian: [14:35] Yeah. You have to just recognize the circumstances. I think that’s important so you’re not repeating the same pattern over and over again and going back and doing the same thing.

[14:47] I think there’s definitely a lot of value in that, and seeing how you got to where you are, and how you were responsible, so that you can change it. Make it better next time around, or whatever. I know for me, when it came down to telling my family and friends, that was hard.

[15:06] It took me a long time, because it was almost like once I told them that things were going sideways, it was over. It was almost like, “OK, as soon as I let anybody know that this shit’s going south, then it’s done.”

[15:22] It took me awhile before I would talk to anybody about it, because I just didn’t want it to be real. By me vocalizing it, that somehow made it more real. That was tough.

Tom: [15:34] I think that’s really powerful. I want you to talk some more about that, because the saying of the thing making it real. I think people really have to confront. I know like I did. Our situations are a little different in that I genuinely was taken by surprise.

[15:50] I really, in my mind, thought that if there was ever a problem, that there would at least be a grasp to reach out for. Now, in fairness, my ex would say, “Oh, I was crying out for help for years, and you just wouldn’t listen.”

[16:08] That’s, I think, quite honestly fair in the context of it not being explicit. There was never an explicit call for, “Hey, we need to go get help because I’m really unhappy.” I know in her mind, there were a lot of implied sort of cries for help. “You need to think more about the unit,” we used to joke about it. I didn’t take it as serious as I needed to.

[16:35] But you’re right. When you say it, it makes it really real. But when she left, she was gone, and people needed to know it. It was interesting, though, when I was on vacation and seeing friends of friends, and they would ask me about my ex.

[16:53] It was really hard in a couple of cases to go, “Yeah, we’re split,” because it had been so long and I was revisiting that again. Did you have that experience? Do you find yourself explaining to people that you hadn’t seen in awhile something that you’d been explaining for months?

Adrian: [17:11] Yeah, well, it kind of comes back. Those feelings come back to you, and you get to relive the joys of pain over and over again by kind of retelling that story.

[17:23] One of the hardest things was, really, my ex and I were in therapy, and we were kind of going down this track. Just saying the word divorce when we were in counseling together.That was a tough one.

[17:34] I couldn’t say it. I took me a lot. Literally, I couldn’t get the words out of my mouth. “Is this what we’re doing? The D word? Is this what’s happening here? What’s going on?” It’s pretty powerful.

Tom: [17:49] Did your counsellor acknowledge you have difficulty saying the word? [?] Did he challenge you on that?

Tom: [17:58] Yeah. He said, “Yeah, that’s a hard word to say, isn’t it?” I was like, “Yeah, it is. [laughs] I can’t say it.” It’s funny because the relation at that point was unraveling, and now you’re starting to define the relationship in whole new way. It’s just like, “Whoa, is this where this is going?”

[18:16] For me, not wanting to look at it and then to have to say it was a tough one. That was surprisingly tough because now you’re just redefining, I think, the whole relationship, and it’s, “OK, what’s marriage now? It’s looking like it’s divorce.” I said, “What’s going on here?” That’s very strange, very tough.

Adrian: [18:35] Did you feel like when you uttered the word that it in fact made it real? That it in fact contributed to expiating it?

Tom: [18:47] Yeah. It felt like somehow this was a magic thing, and if I didn’t say it, it wasn’t going to happen. Once I let the cat out of the bag, then the universe knew that this is the foregone conclusion. “Yup it’s over now, now that you said it and talked about it.”

[19:05] The same thing with close friends and family, when I share it with them the ups and downs of the separation, it was tough. That’s the first calls to say, “Hey, you know, we’re kind of going to a rocky patch here,” and putting that lightly.

Adrian: [19:22] Did you find yourself trying to spin it, or did you find yourself just going, “This is it, fucking reality”?

Tom: [19:27] I didn’t know it was it. I really didn’t know it was it. It felt like I wasn’t sure for a long time whether it was until we’ve gone to the point of actually going through the divorce process. Early on, it was just like, “I don’t know what’s going on here. I don’t know what’s going on,” kind of explaining my situation. It was incredibly hard to even articulate it.

[19:56] But I’ll tell you, once I did that, it was like, “Ah.” It was like a sense of relief. I got really good positive feedback, and knowing that my family had my back was huge. It was a big deal.

Adrian: [20:10] I think if there’s anything I could point to positive about this experience, it is the feeling that you get from people who are truly your friends, who go, “No dude, we love you. It isn’t you. Just because you had this bad thing happen, it doesn’t mean we love you less. It doesn’t mean we think less of you. Shit happens. People change.”

[20:38] It’s really easy to just collapse a dying star and just think it’s all your fault, and everybody’s going to hate you, and there’s this big stain of awfulness and this stain of failure all over you. You can even convince yourself that you don’t have them. You can genuinely convince yourself that your friends and family aren’t there to support you, or you don’t have friends and family to support you.

[21:06] That is just simply not true. You have to realize that your mind is playing a game on you. Fatigue is playing a game on you. Hunger is playing a game on you. Whatever your weakness…Waking up in the middle of the night, and not having the tools to figure through it is fucking with you. You have to realize that you’re being played by your monkey brain.

Tom: [21:35] That fucking monkey, yeah.

Adrian: [21:37] You got to go out. You got to reach out and prove to yourself that your monkey brain is messing with you. It’s scaring you into action, and you need to take the action. You told me that very early on, and it was super valuable.

Tom: [21:57] Part of the thing is you’re defining yourself through your marriage. That’s just who you are. If you’ve been married for a long time, to have that shift. That’s not who I am. “What’s going on? Who am I here? How do I define myself?”

[22:10] I think that’s a big part of it too. It’s like, “OK. I’m going to have to redefine myself.” I think the big opportunity is, now, it’s almost like a level playing field. You get to pick and choose now. You get to basically build a new model you, out of the ashes [laughs] into something that is stronger and better.

[22:33] That was definitely the upside for me. I looked at pretty much every aspect of my life from health, nutrition, exercise, spiritual side, work, entertainment, and just try to pick the best habits and best rituals I wanted to incorporate to try to make myself better and stronger and rebuild. That was a definitely super positive thing for me that came out of a really horrible time.

Adrian: [23:05] I think utilizing all the resources that are really available to you and not listening to those voices that say those things aren’t there, because they are. These friends are there. These family members are there, distant that they may be. Physically or even emotionally, they may be distant, but they’re there. You just got to tap into it.

[23:30] This is your opportunity to do that as you remake yourself as you refine your identity. A big learning for me on vacation was there is an identity or part of my identity that had been suppressed just to become part of a team. You do that, but then you got to release it. You got to re-realize that part of you that you had suppressed in order to be part of that team that isn’t a team anymore.

[24:03] Another thing that happened to me in this past week was that we finalize the mediation agreement. That was a good ending point too because that really…As you mentioned, saying divorce and saying I’m divorced…As I say “ex,” I caught myself saying “my wife.” I caught myself referring to things the way they used to be.

[24:26] It’s sad for a minute but not nearly as sad as I used to get. As a friend of mine said, it’s the cauterization of that emotional attachment that’s been ripped off and torn away. Your mind starts to cauterize these tears.

Tom: [24:40] To your point earlier about taking action, I think one of the things that surprised me the most is when you’re reaching out to friends and even distant family. I was surprised at the openness and the insight that I got from some of my distant relatives, people that I haven’t talked to really in months or years. They hit me with just some really good insight, and understanding, and openness. I was shocked.

[25:10] Then, other folks who I thought I would get more were not so much, so you might be surprised where he kept these little nuggets to help you along. You won’t know until you ask and reach out and face that and try to connect. That’s super important.

Adrian: [25:25] And you’ve got to do that. It’s not going to get done for you. One or two people may reach out to you. Consider yourself extraordinarily lucky if people learn about your situation and reach out to you. That’s miraculous. To expect that is delusional [laughs] because it just doesn’t happen.

[25:45] One of my closest friends, I hadn’t talked to in a very long time since this happened, and he had a tremendous amount of guilt about it. I felt so bad for him because it really wasn’t on him. It was on me to reach out to him. Honestly, I just continue to be just very sensitive to the burden that can be reaching out to people.

[26:07] I realized that it’s somewhat of a mixed message to say on the one hand, “Reach out to people. It’s essential because it is.” Then on the other hand to acknowledge that, “Yeah, it can be burdensome to some of your friends because it is.” You do have to be able to have some situational awareness about what you’re talking about and the particular friend or family member’s tolerance for that stuff.

[26:33] Everyone’s a hit and miss there. The thing is, I don’t know, how do you get a sense or read from friends and family when they’ve had enough or when you’ve reached their limit of tolerance around this stuff?

Tom: [26:51] Usually around 3:30 AM.

Adrian: [laughs] [26:52]

Tom: [26:54] That’s when I know. That’s when I know I’ve pushed the limit [laughs] . Or it’s just the dial tone. The dial tone is a great listener. You’ll be surprised just saying it out there. Get a turtle. They don’t talk back. [laughs] That’s the other thing.

Adrian: [laughs] Yeah, but they’ll chop your ass, [laughs] [27:12] so you got to be really careful with a turtle.

Tom: [27:16] I probably, definitely, had worn out friends’ ears for longer than necessary. I think checking in a couple of times a week or when you’re in the thick of it, once a day. Just say, “Hey man, I’m going through some stuff.” And they’ll pick up.

[27:36] My big thing was having another friend that was going through this. I said, “Hey, if I’m not available, I just won’t pick up the phone. If I can’t talk to you, just leave a message: Call me. If I’m there and I can chat…I’d love to help out, but if I can’t, if something’s going on, then I’m not going to pick up the phone.”

[27:58] I said, “But don’t feel bad about calling me. I’ll be the judge. I’ll be the arbiter of that dialogue,” to take the pressure off of them. I’m like, “Call whenever you want. I’d shut my ringer off at night, so if you need to call at three o’clock at the morning, just call me, man. If I’m up for whatever reason, we can chat. If not, it’s cool.”

Adrian: [28:16] But when you were going through it, did you find that there are any cues or clues that the person listening to you have had enough?

Tom: [28:28] No, but I’m not a great listener. I was more [laughs] on the document stage.

[28:33] [laughter]

Tom: [28:36] I got more, I think, upset of myself because I found myself repeating myself. I’m like, “Oh shit, I’m telling this story again, really? I’m just tired of it.” I think I’ve burnt myself out more than I burnt them out.

[28:48] But I think maybe a cue might be like a shorter type of a conversation where you’re getting the “Uh-huh. Uh-huh? Uh-huh. I’m just doing some email here. I know you’ve gone through a hard time, but I got to take care of these letters,” that kind of thing. So just being aware of what’s going on. What about you, any kind of social cues?

Adrian: [29:09] I wish I was more socially attuned because I think I’m almost like autistic or Asperger’s.

Tom: [29:17] A savant. I just think I’m a savant.

Adrian: [29:19] I’m not as socially aware as I should be. I just worry about it as opposed to like being smart about it and trying to pay closer attention. Coz I think you nailed it which is assess the listener’s engagement and interest by their level of depth in their questions.

Tom: [29:40] The law says stop answering your calls. If you’re getting that, then you know. You kind of, “OK. I’ve been calling too much.” If they used to pick up in every ring and now they don’t, then you know.

Adrian: [29:52] Yeah, and you don’t want it to get there, right? You want to try to avoid that if you can. But the other thing is, even if you find yourself in that situation where you feel like you burned people out with your pain, your friends are remarkably resilient, and they will pick up again. Just let them rest a second, and they’ll come back.

[30:12] Just like you said, they may not pick up the phone that time, but don’t let that deter you, and just pace yourself. People kept telling me this, and I want to share it too, that this takes a long time. When people go like, “How long?” Mine was pretty fast, and it was a year. I’ll be coming up in a year on October, and it’s August now.

[30:36] I’ve got plenty of dark times ahead, I’m sure. It’ll come back.

[30:40] Personally, at this point, I can’t imagine dating again. There’s stuff that I just can’t even imagine. Yet, when I talk to my friends about it, they’re like, “What? Yeah, of course you’ll date again.” They view it as silly.

[30:56] That sort of, “Oh, you have the bends. You’re wasted on your emotional neurochemistry. You’re out of your mind.”

[31:08] When your friends tell you that, take it to heart because it’s true. Particularly, boy, in the first six months especially. As long as that seems. If you’re just starting down this road and somebody says “Oh, yeah, at six months you’re barely into it,” and you’re like, “Holy crap.”

Adrian: [31:26] Right. It’s just the tip of the iceberg. You’re like, “What’s going on?”

Tom: [31:28] It needs to be said. It needs to be heard. Like you told me. I heard you. At times, it was the worst thing ever, and at other times it was like, “OK, OK, OK.” It’s just like running or any other sort of endurance thing.

[31:46] You just kind of go, “OK, another wall, OK,” and just kind of face it and pump through it. Your friends too.

[31:56] We’ll talk about this in a follow up podcast, but with friends, they will want to fix you. That term “fix you up” comes up a lot. In divorce recovery, which we’ll talk about a little bit in a future podcast, they’ll tell you that that phrase is a very telling one in that you will have friends who will want to fix you.

[32:20] By that, it means pairing you with someone else that is to make you like you were when you were married. The need to avoid that is pretty high, I think. Did you have anybody try to fix you up too early?

Adrian: [32:37] Not any of my guy friends. That wasn’t their job.”Hey, that’s not my role man. Go and hunt yourself.” But I definitely had hairdressers and that kind of thing where I was like, “Whoa, yeah…”

Tom: [32:51] Hairdressers? What the fuck’s that?

Adrian: [laughs] [32:54] I mean the barbershop girl. Stripper. Who goes to a hairdresser, really?

Tom: [laughs] [33:00]

Adrian: [33:02] Yeah, the place where I get my hair cut. The girls down there would try to do that. It was just…I don’t know. At the time, it was just like where you are. It was just too early and you’re like, “I just, ah, I’m going to stay away from all women.”

Tom: [33:19] That’s very telling too, I think, who’s your friend. Just the way you framed it I think is worth reframing, because it’s really important.

[33:27] Like you said, your guy friends, no. They didn’t even think about that. The further you get out in your circle of intimacy. Girlfriends and then hairdresser who are ready to make you the way you were.

[33:43] I think the takeaway from this is you have the opportunity to be who you really are, and you need to take it. That’s not going to happen if you jump right back into a relationship or you jump back into quick fixes. You have an opportunity to really build foundationally, and you should take it.

[34:04] People who are close to you are going to see that and work that. Particularly, friends that you had prior to being married as opposed to people with less proximity to you who want to make you back to what you were, because that’s what they were comfortable with.

[34:23] I think it’s important to be careful and avoid that trap, because it’s an easy one to fall into.

Adrian: [34:29] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Tom: [34:31] We have gone over our time, Adrian. Let’s talk about what we’re looking at next time.

Adrian: [34:37] Next time we’re going to be talking about forgiveness. What that’s all about. “Can you forgive? Are you able to? What’s that all about?” We’ll delve into that deep next time.

Tom: [sarcastically] [34:46] Forgiveness?

Adrian: [sarcastically] [34:48] Forgiveness? Who needs that? That’s for the weak.

Tom: [laughs] [34:50] Oh, that’s a tough one. Yeah, all kidding aside, it’s important because you can’t move on without it. Whether you like it or not. I’m looking forward to that. It’s a good topic.

[35:02] I appreciate your time with us today. We hope more than anything that we’ve been helpful. Check out the website. There’s lots of good stuff about family and friends, and all the topics that we’ve talked about on the podcast. We’ll have another one for you all queued up and ready to go. Until then, I’m Tom.

Adrian: [35:20] And I’m Adrian.

Tom: [35:21] Thanks for joining us.

Adrian: [35:21] Thanks.

[35:22] [background music]

Announcer: [35:23] Thanks for listening to the OverDivorce.com podcast with Adrian and Tom. The opinions expressed are theirs alone. They’re not professionals. Join us next time, anyway. It’ll be good for you.

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